SPEAKER_00 0:02

We've projected our ideals all around the world. The question is, do we still believe those ideals?

SPEAKER_01 0:11

A vast majority of the world's population is looking at America not as necessarily the good guy that they can trust.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

I can tell you when you get down that low in percentages, that's when you really look for massive change.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

What does the world think about America these days?

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Well, Dan, I've got family members in Canada who will not come down to the U.S. because they think everybody's got a gun in their truck and they're likely to get shot.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Wow. Would they get shot? I hope not. Welcome to Abundant conversations about the life everyone's looking for and what's getting in the way. I'm Dan Jarvis, joined by my good friend Del Fasenfeld, and today we're talking about America on the world stage. What has America been to the rest of the world for the last 250 years? And who are we right now? Who are we hoping to become? Someone's going to lead the next century, and the question is who? Will it be us? So, Del, when you think about America and its place in the world right now, where do you see it?

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Well, I don't know. I think the first time I even thought about that question was years ago when I was in college. I had a summer program at Cambridge, and I was there with students from all over the world, and one of the things that surprised me was their impression of Americans. They said you all walk around with big cheesy grins and with your straight teeth and wearing your Levi's thinking you're so cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Yeah, what is the straight teeth issue? Because I see that on like if you watch the British baking show, they've got crooked teeth.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

They just don't have to be just don't do orthodontics, you know, in Britain. And so they think it's funny that all the Americans have straight teeth, and they think it's kind of why we smile so much. Showing them off.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Maybe it is. You pay a lot for your smile, you better use it once in a while. So back in the day, I mean, far back in the day, the 1600s, when the pilgrims were here, they saw what they were doing, the kind of society they wanted to build as something that the whole world would see. And and I think it's because they were coming from the old world, people doubting them, people shaming them, people persecuting them, so they flee to the new world to start a new life. And eventually that would mean starting a new nation. And so they were thinking everybody's watching.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

That's right. And even the city on the hill comment that America is a city on the hill that everyone's looking at. I think it can be interpreted like, oh wow, look at us. But I think originally this was more about the fact that this was a brand new experiment. In fact, the founder of one of the colonies, John Winthrop, there in 1630, he actually coined that phrase, city on the hill. I think the exact quote was, We shall be a city on the hill. The eyes of all people are upon us.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Yes. Well, and there's more to that quote, which kind of gives you this sense that he wasn't saying, Hey, everybody, look at us. It was a little bit more of a warning to the people in the colony, because he continued on. He said, If we deal falsely with our God in this work of sort of setting up this new colony, we shall be made a story and a byword throughout the world.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

So it wasn't really a brag, it actually was a warning. Like he was saying, Everyone's watching, so don't blow it.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

Yeah. So it's interesting. Over the course of time, both political parties have used that phrase, the city on a hill, to describe America's place, or at least aspirationally, what we hope we could be or what we've been. JFK mentioned it, Ronald Reagan mentioned it along the way. And it is important, I think, to point out that that quote borrows from Jesus, who was talking about being a light to the world, and he wasn't talking to countries. Certainly, I mean, America wasn't around at that time. He was speaking to the disciples, saying, you know, a city on a hill cannot be hidden. And essentially, they, in their the way that they live, need to be a light to the world. So I think it's notable that you could take a whole society and say a country should be a positive light, but it's definitely not like this isn't a uniquely American concept. This is just more of us recognizing as a country, due to the nature of our founding and the grand experiment of setting up a free society in which people from all over the world would immigrate to and become one, that is something people are going to look at and evaluate. And if it doesn't work, yeah, we would be a laughing stock throughout the world, just like Bradford was warning.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

Yeah, and it's almost speaks to the smallness of the original experiment. It was a small, sort of fragile kind of thing that they were doing, and they realized that if it wasn't for the fact that one small candle can light up a dark place and spread, it was going to be doomed to failure. So it almost puts the responsibility back on kind of the core values, I guess, of what our whole way of life is about.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

Yeah. So it was about 150 years later that the American Revolution transpired and the then the Constitution was written, our Republic was set up as it is now. And one of the things about that era as well is they were recognizing, again, kind of the eyes of the world are upon us because it's the first time that citizens, average people, were being granted essentially equality and freedom in their form of government. There wasn't a ruling class, as it were, there wasn't a monarchy, there was no more divine right of kings. This was going to be a scenario where every person has a voice and a vote and an opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 5:41

Yeah, and nobody thought it was going to work. I mean, they were all thinking this is a joke, uh, it's a doomed experiment. It's a preposterous, sort of like maybe even arrogant undertaking. And that's why we're watching, because we're all waiting for you to fall down.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Yeah, certainly that's what the British royalty would have been thinking as they saw these sort of scrappy, rebellious American colonies thinking that they were all that leaving the protection of Mother Britain or whatever. But of course, history tells that story. G.K. Chesterton was a thinker back in England a few generations ago, and he made note that America is the only nation in the world that is founded on a creed. So all that is kind of a backdrop to this question of how does the world now view America? Obviously, America has been a leading power since the world wars. America, you know, accelerated in power, Europe in many ways kind of reduced in influence and power. And even though there are other important countries around the world, America technologically, financially, and even as far as like its organizing principles has been the world leader for this past century.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

We've projected our ideals, I guess, all around the world and held them up. And I guess the question is: do we still believe those ideals? Do we still believe them ourselves? And does the rest of the world think we believe it?

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Yeah. I remember listening to an audiobook of this guy's journey through Africa. He started up in Cairo and he like journeyed on foot and by bicycle all the way down to Cape Town. So he covered the whole continent. And he wrote stories of people he met and their perspectives. And so many people wanted to talk to him about America because he was American. And he would just be in random African villages, you know, way offbeat, not near any major city. And the narrative in so many people's minds was that their dream was someday to get to America. And he would be looking at these people, you know, what we might call like a backward village with the thatch roof huts and all that stuff. And and still, somehow they had heard about this place and they were dreaming of it, even though their ability to get here would be, you know, very remote, be difficult. And so you think, well, what causes all that? So I think it'd be interesting to just do a little back and forth with you on what do people see when they look at America? Because there are pros and there are cons, right? So there's lots of good things. That's why people try to get here. It's why there's so much demand for immigration. But there's also some things I think we've exported around the world that we're not proud of that people may see. So it's a mixed bag, as it would be with any culture. But let's start with some of the fun ones. And I'll just ask you what you think the world is seeing when they see various elements about our country or culture or symbolism.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

Yeah. I mean, they I I've heard it decided that we're one of the most patriotic people on earth. I mean, we wave our flag everywhere. You know, the flag is sort of the symbol of all that we project, our freedom, the American dream. So I think people think, wow, you know, you've got that flag.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

So when that flag shows up, what do you think people are seeing? I think during the 1940s, that flag showing up meant you're going to be liberated from tyranny from either the Japanese or the Germans, you know, and you're you have there's hope on the horizon. Nowadays, when that flag shows up, it probably depends on what part of the world you're in, of whether that's a positive or negative symbol.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

Yeah. Well, you see images sometimes of people burning the flag. Yeah. Right. Pretty jarring. And you think, wow, what did we ever do to you? You know, there is a story behind that.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

Yeah, I mean, they would have an answer of what they think we did to them.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

Yeah, I mean, for some people, it means it could mean like a sort of economic system that disadvantaged in them in some way, or maybe takes advantage of them. It could mean sort of like military force.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

I think the military interventions is a big part of the world's view of us. And so we would have our own logic. Certainly for you know, every one of those interventions had a reason. Some of those are had have been proven to be right and justified, and others, in retrospect, we'd say those were mistakes or they were based on false premises. But definitely that's that's where I think it depends on where you're at in the world of whether the U.S. flag is a pro or a con to you. How about the Statue of Liberty?

SPEAKER_00 9:56

Oh man. We hope that that evokes a powerful symbol for all people everywhere, the idea that tired, poor, huddled masses can be free. You'd like to think that that's somewhere deep in the dream of every human heart, and that to some degree America has stood for the idea of a fresh start and freedom and a new beginning.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

Yeah. I think about that when I hear about the human caravans that will form somewhere in Central America and people just start trying to walk to the U.S. through thick and thin. I mean, it's not an easy journey. And obviously, there's an appropriate legal way to enter the country. So that it gets into that discussion pretty quick when you talk about the caravans. But I just think about individually, there are people amidst those that are really trying to have a better life. I'm sure there's also bad actors in the midst of those that we would legitimately say we don't want them to come in. But who knows? I'm not there. But I'm just saying that probably the majority of those people just feel like they've got their shot at getting to a place where they really could earn enough money to have a good life or support their family somehow. And so they join the big group walking.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

Yeah, I think the other thing that the Statue of Liberty kind of could invoke is this idea that the melting pot idea uh in America that that there were people from literally all over the world that would come together to merge into one society around maybe these ideals of personal freedom.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

Yeah. So right alongside that, I think there'd be the word opportunity, probably is something that's in the minds of a lot of people when they think about America. If you're a shopkeeper in some other country that for whatever reason doesn't have good legal protection, there's not a strong rule of law, there's a lot of corruption, you probably are thinking to yourself, if only I could do my business in a place where I could really be free or where I could really trust the system a little bit more, uh, I could thrive. And so so many people do come here, and there's almost a an expectation that, you know, you look around, you think that some of the most amazing startup businesses are built by recent immigrants because the people who've grown up here might be kind of used to the prosperity and they're taking it for granted. But the person that just got here and is thrilled to now be an American, like they're working their tail off to make make it in life, and so their businesses grow.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

There's this um idea of the rags to riches that any person with a great idea and you know work can make something more of themselves. I mean, that I that dream of like sort of upward mobility, that you're not stuck or sort of locked into your class or to your vocation, that there's actually choice in the ability to make a better future, I think is part of the lore of America.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

Yeah, definitely. All right, how about uh space, space technology? I think that's a big one that people associate with the US.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Yeah. First to the moon.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

And likely, Lord willing, I guess, you know, first to Mars or, you know, some other places that, you know, there's there's other neat things that maybe are just down the horizon somewhere that we could see.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

I I guess the phrase, you know, the sky is the limit. You know, this idea that you could somehow go beyond that even. Yeah, the sky's the limit. It's probably even more than the space technology itself. It's this this idea of like sort of transcendence or being, you know, not being not being limited.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

Yeah, if you're born somewhere else in the world and you dream of being an astronaut, your best shot at doing that is probably somehow getting to America or partnering with an agency that is partnering with American space exploration and doing it that way. That may not always be the case, but it's definitely the case right now. Now, if we were to switch to some of the negatives, some of the things that people might associate with America and they shake their head. One would be our media circus, you know, where it's a pro and a con of America, right? We can criticize our politicians, and we're really, really good at doing that in public with essentially no sense of propriety. So all the worst dirty laundry we could air, some of it's not even real, is being aired not just to one another, but the whole world is watching that show.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

And probably amazed by it and disgusted by it at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

Sure. I mean, where else in the world would reality TV and sort of barrel talk shows become the staple of sort of like American television?

SPEAKER_01 14:14

Yeah, right. Well, and where the the presidents were reality TV stars, right? It's all a big circle. So another few things that I'd say we're exporting that are not healthy, Hollywood and maybe attached to that would be pornography.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

Like just the immoral, licentious cultural elements that not only are those in our culture, but we've figured out amazing ways to project those to everybody else. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:41

It's where our porn industry is sort of more more uh more dollars come in for it than all of our sports teams combined. When you dig into that, when you dig into sort of the underbelly of the porn industry and its tentacles all around the world and the way it exploits and traffics, and it's just a it's a story that is so dark that you can barely uh you can barely recover from just looking at it.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

Yeah. I think another thing that is out there as part of the narrative about America, but I would I would flag it as unfair, would be they kind of like you were joking about your Canadian friends, maybe not joking, like that people really think this is a violent, dangerous place. Part of that dynamic, I think, is because we have true freedom in our in our press. So the the bad news does get aired. There's a lot of places in the world that I would consider to be less safe than America, but you don't hear about them because they don't have freedom of the press, or they they also don't have cultural influence where people would care so much. But it's definitely true that like kind of the violent culture, gang culture, there there's quite a bit that you could say America's major cities with and their murder rates not being like I think there was a time, I don't remember the specific stat, when it was safer to be in the US Army in Iraq than to be on the streets of Chicago.

SPEAKER_00 16:07

Oh man.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

Just by nature of the fact of like, what is your chance of getting murdered today? And so we've got some big issues in that regard, and I think the whole world knows it, right? So Shining City on a hill, you go, well, maybe when it comes to like the ideals of our political institutions, yes, but our lifestyles and our morality and our the practice, like are we practicing what we preach? I don't necessarily think we're shining that brightly these days.

SPEAKER_00 16:36

I think I think one of the sad features of this moment in history, at least, is the projection maybe of like an arrogance.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

My perception of the feedback that we're getting from all over the world is we're kind of rubbing it in people's faces and we're not we're not necessarily representing the power and sort of the affluence and the ideals in ways that are winsome that are kind of really off-putting and you know, maybe just downright disgusting.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Yeah, nobody I mean y you you want strong, good countries, but when they start acting cocky, it it's I think it could be a sign of weakness, honestly, as well. You know, if you're in decline or you're kind of self-doubting, one of the ways you can try to prove it, prove how great you are, and I don't I don't think that's healthy. And I definitely think that certainly, you know, right now the narrative surrounding America would be threats to our allies and you know, cozying to our enemies, and the there's the whole tariff discussion, and so sure, none of the things.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

And just some of the rhetoric.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

You know, I mean it just feels it feels beneath uh world-class society. You know, you could just say, well, that that's just not that's just not classy, it's not it's not virtuous, it's not very mature, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

Okay, so if if there's a gap between what we think people think and what we actu what is actually true, when you counsel people uh from a therapeutic perspective and they're believing things about themselves that are just not so, what are some of the underlying factors there? Why how do people get a misperception of reality like that?

SPEAKER_00 18:17

I think sometimes we just are not listening to feedback. Um you know, we're believing our own press. Easy to happen. Maybe we're only seeing what we want to see.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

You know, we that's a huge problem for America, right? Because now we have channels that tell us what we want to see. Like we we don't even have to think about what the other side of something might say because we've got like curated news and programming and music and everything that's tailored to exactly what we wish was true, even if it's not really true.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Yeah. And I think there's just um there's just a tendency to always to naturally interpret feedback from how it's impacting me or how I see it. Like if there's no mechanism to actually say, How is this actually affecting you? You know, and we don't take that seriously, then it's easy to to have a huge gap.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

Yeah. So I I read an article years ago. I really liked the title, and it said the world needs America to be America. Meaning there are some American values and principles that are beyond American. It's not just good for us, it's actually good for humanity. Uh things like equality and opportunity and virtue. And the idea that the leading power in the world could be virtuous really bodes well for the whole world. That would be the ideal scenario. And so if it's not us, who is it going to be that leads the future? And if it if it is going to be us, how could we reclaim that virtuous mantle, the moral leadership of the world? I think that's immensely important. Like if we are just kind of a self-focused power that happens to be more powerful than everybody else, that just makes us the same as the empires of history that eventually fizzled out because they overplayed their hands, you know. And I don't want that to be the case for America, but it does seem like that could be what's happening.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

I think it's interesting that you use that word overplayed, because it could be that part of the negative impact that we're having on the world right now could be the shadow side or the other side of some of the of the strengths that we actually brought to the world. So, like, for example, America has been awesome at holding up the ideal of individual freedom, that people should have personal rights and dignity and and that you should be free to make your choices and all of that. That's an awesome value. But when you're so focused on yourself, as you mentioned, that you don't you forget how to make community and you forget how to love other people and you forget how to use what's good for you for the benefit of others, then all of a sudden that great value of being an individualist, of individual, becomes oppressive to the well-being of maybe the world. So that would be an example of a gap. I mean, what other ones do you see potentially that could just be overplayed?

SPEAKER_01 21:17

Well, having m military strength to defend liberty and freedom, ostensibly, to protect what's good in the world. And even the idea that I'd say we've been hearing in the last few years of we don't really need to build a coalition, we'll just do it on our own. Say, well, I mean, I think there are moments when you may have to do something on your own because nobody else will join you. But I don't think it's healthy to be approaching that conversation with a prideful spirit, going like we just don't need allies anymore. I th I really think we need the whole world to work together toward what's good. Yeah. And if we can lead that coalition, great. But the moment that we start acting like the rest of the world is an inconvenience to us, I feel like we lose friends, we lose allies, and then I think. That means we lose future opportunities.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

I I think another one, Dan, maybe is America has created these economic systems that opened up world markets and field trade and economic growth, you know, I think here, but also around the world. But when a culture becomes so consumeristic what that consumption becomes sort of the driving force, there's a real downside in terms of just everything downline. And when you look at the stats of how much of the world's goods are consumed by a very small number of people, you start to wonder like, is consumerism gotten out of control? Is that who's really driving the ship? Is it our values or our greed?

SPEAKER_01 22:41

Yeah, there's one other piece to that as well from an economics perspective is that America has an amazing uh privilege in the world right now of being the world reserve currency. So our dollars are what oil is traded in, and what most international transactions happen in dollars or indexed dollars somehow. And the idea that we would be a neutral, stable provider of that world reserve currency is what allows us to have the level of prosperity we have now and what allows us to borrow so much money seemingly without consequence. Lately, we've been using our banking system more and more as a weapon, almost like in the arsenal, and each individual use of that seems logical. You say we're gonna punish the bad guys of the world by not letting them participate in the financial system of the world. But what that also does is it starts to signal to other countries that they're going to have to build their own system and not use ours if they really want to operate as like if they otherwise they're just gonna have to do whatever we say in the future. And so I think you start, you're seeing that now where different coalitions of other countries are getting together and sort of trying to get themselves off of reliance on the US dollar. And I don't think that's morally good or bad, but it definitely doesn't bode well for our ability to project influence for the causes of good in the world in the future. I think it causes more fragmentation and risk going forward.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

There's also like one other facet of this Dan that it's a little more complicated, but when you're the reserve currency like we are and we print money the way we've been doing, that creates inflation. And if you notice our inflation is going up, but not at the not proportionate to how much money we've printed, which means that inflation is going somewhere. The cot the cost of goods and just everything is going somewhere. And a lot of times it goes downline to the people that have less power or mu less economic voice. And that's actually one of the reasons that some economists say when Americans watch the news and they see a country protesting or burning our flag, and you're like, hey, what did we ever do to you? Well, part of it is economic. I mean, there's some downline cost when a country with this much power acts irresponsibly economically.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So a little bit of a scoreboard. I I know the Pew Research Center has done some international polling, and it's kind of interesting to look at. A recent survey of 36 countries, this was in 2026, a median of 23% have they they surveyed like 40,000 adults throughout these 36 countries. 23% of them had confidence that President Trump would do the right thing in world affairs, which means whatever that, you know, 77% think he's not going to do the right thing. 35% say the U.S. contributes to global peace and stability. 63% said it doesn't. And I think, wow, you know, all the different international actions that the U.S. military takes or that our State Department through diplomacy takes ostensibly is to produce peace and prosperity for people, sometimes without much expectation of direct return for us. Like some of it is almost wantonly giving money away to things that we'd say, why are we investing in that? Um, and yet somehow it's not translating into the average person across the globe thinking that we're a force for good anymore. And I think that needs to be addressed. Man, that is alarming. That's like listen to your feedback, what you were saying earlier. That's some feedback. And you could say, oh, that's the news media in those countries twisting it or spinning it. Well, you know, maybe so, but we still have to listen to that feedback. That's the reality for a vast majority of the world's population is looking at America not as necessarily the good guy that they can trust.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

I can tell you, when you get down that low in percentages, I know from social science that when you rank stuff on like a three out of ten with your satisfaction, that's when you really look for massive change. When people are that disillusioned, that upset at that level, they start looking for alternatives. And I wonder if that's not what's happening right now.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Yeah, well, one other stat said for the first time since this study had been taken, China was viewed more favorably than the US in most countries surveyed.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

Now, I would be the first to line up and say some of that has to do with news media manipulation in those countries, but there again, it's still the reality they're living in, whether we agree with it or not. So that definitely needs to be addressed.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

One of the things that's concerned me, Dan, is that it feels like we're picking fights also just even with our neighbors. So even what's happened in the last 10 years with our relationships with Mexico and Canada. I mean, they're they're the ones right next to us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

Yeah, there's so much possible good in the future too. When you when you run the numbers economically and then from a geography and resource perspective, if North America would happily work together as a block of three big countries, that would be an amazing power play for the future. And so it seems like if we're looking at a world where you know there's all sorts of risks and challenges, that we ought to be mending those fences and making Canada and Mexico our best friends and like let's work together.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

It feels like something's wrong to me when you're picking fights with Canadians. I mean, I just gotta tell you, I mean, I there you used to sort of be a spoof, you know, that we were gonna go to war with Canada, I think it's in a John Candy movie or whatever, but it feels like in this last year that we're kind of at a breaking point with with Canada. It's it feels to me that when you've ticked off the Canadians, something's gone wrong in your diplomacy.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

Yeah, yeah. It definitely needs a reset. So a few other things that I wanted to call out before I think we could swing this podcast over to what do we do about it? Because we could all muse all day long about things that are good or bad. But is there anything that you or I as average citizens can do? I wanted to name out a few things that I think in the current we could say not just the last year, but the last decade that have happened that would cause the world to pause, and I think have certainly darkened the light of our city on a hill, put a basket over it, or whatever metaphor you want to use. A word that comes to mind is the word whiplash as we've gone far left and far right, and the policy of America feels not dependable. I think the world sees that. And we all probably, you know, we're feeling it election to election. We understand what's going on, but the headlines around the world are one way, and now it's totally the opposite. And then it might swing back two years from now and be completely different again. So a few things that have happened recently that tarnish that reputation. One would be there are various major worldwide treaties that we've come into and then gone out of very quickly, just based on political. And I would put the fault of that at all of our leaders to say if if you're going to forge consensus and treaties, you have to do that in a bipartisan way ahead of time, or else it's true. You know, four years from now, we get a different kind of president, a different kind of Congress, and they switch it. And all along, I think there needs to be more consensus built to make this work. But one that worries me is the start treaties with Russia that were essentially the governance framework for how nuclear weapons would where would we allow them, how many would we have, how would we reduce the proliferation of those to other countries? We've stepped away from those. Paris Climate Accords is another one. I think that when we pulled out of Afghanistan, it was a really bad look for America. And the factors that led to that were some years and coming, but it wasn't well handled. I mean, that's I think that's pretty clear. And it made the it just kind of makes the average person around the world scratch their head and wonder what's wrong with us. I think it makes the average government around the world wonder if they really should trust us in the future. Yeah. If we say we're in an alliance with them.

SPEAKER_00 30:55

I hedge that risk. And I think some of the way that some of the m the issues that are like in the headlines every day right now seem to be undermining some of that basic value proposition that America's always stood for, whether whether that's fair or not. But for for example, when immigration when it feels like you're slamming a door on immigration, this is a huge fight right now, right? It's a lot of rhetoric around it. We could argue that stuff needs to be fixed in that system, and maybe even what some of what's being done is an effort to fix that. But on the public perception battle, if you've been a country that's a melting pot and welcoming to people from all nations, and all of a sudden you're holding up a stop sign and basically, you know, freezing out whole groups of people, it starts to undermine the lore, right, of America. What could be said about that? I don't know. There's just a lot it feels that needs to be addressed.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

Yeah. Some of these things are, I think, failures of messaging as well. You know, you can change your policy, but like explain it with humility and character and virtue instead of just a sound bite, a billboard. I think it's I think that's the double whammy, right?

SPEAKER_00 31:59

It's like when you lose the rhetoric, is no longer, you know, sort of seeming to be civil and humble. And then you also have these keystone issues that feel like the messaging attached to that is the opposite of what you've always stood for. You do start to wonder what's happening to America.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

Yeah. By the way, have you ever seen that gumball video with that one professor about immigration? It's worth Googling. You probably find it just by typing that in. But he turned the world population into gumballs and he had them in like these big containers, and he was showing how immigration in itself can't can never fix the world because you could never import enough of the gumballs over. If you really want to help the whole world and help people, you have to help them where they are. And so I just think it's interesting. It's kind of an aside to the conversation. But I watched that and thought, okay, you know, that we we have a lot of debate here about immigration when it comes to compassion and caring for people. But it's in and in and of itself, even if Europe and America wanted to just help everybody, the only way actually to do that is to figure out how to bring freedom, prosperity, free markets, all that to all the countries of the world, not just to let the few lucky ones that can sort of find their way into a caravan across the border over. But I definitely think that our way, the way that we treat people from around the world right now, the public narrative is terrible and it needs to be rebooted. I think the policies probably need to change as well. I sat down with a guy a couple weeks ago who said he wanted to start the immigration process to become a U.S. citizen and he wanted to bring his family in. He's here already, so I think he's got a shot at that working out. But it's just interesting. I was it was interesting hearing from him about how it's sort of like if he would have started this process a few years ago, it probably would have been easier. But now there are a lot of doors that are closed and a lot more restrictions, and so for better or for worse, there are still people trying to get here. Right. Um, and they they still see this as the land of opportunity, even with all the faults.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

So I think we're really in the big picture, Dan, maybe talking about the way trust is built and forged. When we say how does the world perceive America? Maybe we're actually asking the question, does the world trust America? And can that trust be eroded and how is it rebuilt?

SPEAKER_01 34:23

Yeah, I've got a list of five things that I think are you could even point to Bible verses specifically if you wanted to look at it in a Christian frame and say, here is what trust is made of, especially when it would come to a group. You know, I think it's true for individuals as well. First, obviously, keep your word. So you promise something, you deliver on it. I think in the moments when you can't for some reason, that's when you need humble, clear messaging to be able to look into somebody's eyes or look into the eyes of some camera somewhere and explain. You don't just sort of preach it and braggadociously go on. You have to actually sit down and say, you know, maybe maybe there are things we've overpromised or we can't do that we used to do, but that's where you would sit down and talk about it in a humble way. Um another would be being just and merciful where you can. Think about the end of the Pledge of Allegiance, you know, that America is supposed to be liberty and justice for all. Everybody. I don't think that's just the people who are here. It's everybody. There's a that any human being, we're seeing their inalienable rights. We're seeing them as someone that God made and that life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, yes, it's guaranteed by the U.S. government to U.S. citizens, but we want that for everybody everywhere, of course. Generosity, I think, is a big must-have for trust to be built, especially from a wealthier culture. And when something goes wrong, I think we should be making it right. So there might be quite a bit of work to do on that front around the world right now, where some of the tension that we've caused, mistakes we've made, promises we haven't delivered on, we should we should. I mean, people, I remember back in the Obama era, he went, maybe it was to Egypt or something, and he kind of apologized for something America did, and half of our country was up at arms that they were calling it the apology tour, and how dare you say that. I think I I don't think that's wrong to say. I think you should apologize. That actually boosts your credibility. You don't apologize for who you are, what you believe. You don't apologize in a fake way, but if you've legitimately wronged someone or some group, yeah, absolutely, make it right.

SPEAKER_00 36:29

It would be so wonderful if there's some things that are having to be stopped in order to clean things up or to root out fraud or to reset the system, that as much attention be put on what you're actually going to turn back on, not just what you're gonna turn off. I think if we probably took stock of the aid that's still being delivered, the things that the US is still doing to promote justice and mercy, it's still a lot. Maybe I I I don't have the stats in front of me, but my guess is that we're still doing more in total volume for relief and for aid and for justice in the world than any other country. However, if you lose track of the ability to be humble, to be clear, to have values and the way you can you communicate, a lot of that in terms of trust can also just leak away and leave a gaping hole that it would be awesome to see our politicians address in a more forthright manner.

SPEAKER_01 37:27

Absolutely. George Washington said in his farewell address, observe good faith and justice toward all nations, cultivate peace and harmony with all. I think that would be a great vision for us to reclaim and say, okay, if if we're going to rebuild that city on a hill or turn the light back on so that more than 35% of the world out there thinks we're a good guy, it would just be a matter of start with humility, start with making things right, and then say, you know, our goal is to have harmony and unity with all that we can, not to deny our values, not to deny the truth, not to let the bad guys have the upper hand, of course, but to lead with some moral strength and to be the moral authority, not just the biggest military or the biggest economy.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

Yeah. You know, sometimes I hear a report that one of our politicians, like our Secretary of State or President Trump or whoever, had a call with a world leader. And I always wonder to myself, what did he say? What did they say? You know, I mean, like, what would I say? You know, if I was on that phone call. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:31

Sometimes they give readouts and you can like the non-private part of it, you can read. I don't know. Sometimes it's all just diplomatic speech. Sometimes it's not very encouraging. You know, you think, I think I could have done better than that.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

But it it does raise the question, like, if you had one phone call to one of these world leaders, given the state of things and all that we've talked about, what would you say?

SPEAKER_01 38:52

I think I would ask for a face-to-face meeting. You know, I think if you if you're really going to build a relationship, the phone and texting, and it's just like in our interpersonal relationships, we say if you really have an important discussion, you should probably do it in person. Probably it's really important that we have some of these key leaders in and actually talk to them eye to eye about where do we want the world to go and how could we help each other? I do think that happens. I don't think that we're a zero here. It's just I think that it needs to be more intentional and certainly messaged a lot better than it has been.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

So let's take an ally. I mean, like what would you what would you want to say to an ally right now?

SPEAKER_01 39:30

Right now, like, well, I guess you could say Canada since we were talking about them, you know. Um, so I I would say, well, where have we wronged them? Where have we created unnecessary stress or tension and apologize for that and figure out how we could make that right if that's possible? How could we work together for the future we all want? It might be good even to start with you know, what are the shared values we have? Because every culture does have its own set of nuances to its values and things it's trying to accomplish. They may have their own goals that are a little different than ours. So, where do those line up? How could we work together? Uh, what are some of the common threats we see that we could stand together to meet? And maybe just for the average people in those cultures, if we all want our populations to thrive, it's not just our government's going to do well, it's our people gonna do well. And so, are there things that we could do that would make one another's populations that much wealthier or healthier or happier? And my guess is there are probably some really exciting things we could do if we were willing to just have those conversations and work together.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

Kind of inspiring. What about for an adversary? Like we've got some enemies, right, in the world right now, and the world is pretty polarized and volatile. When we hear these people's names in the news all the time, whether it's Putin or Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:52

Well, I think there's a difference between adversary and enemy. So an adversary would be someone whose interests are not aligned with yours. And so certainly right now you could say China is an adversary of the U.S. I don't know that you should say we're if they're an enemy of the U.S. They could become that if there was a war. I hope that never happens. I think you address those two groups differently. So if somebody's adversarial, I think you still start by saying, well, what is our common ground? Like we're still all human beings, we all have to share planet Earth. You could probably have, you know, joint environmental initiatives, or what are some of the threats that we all face together? Let's meet those. And I'd still probably argue that everybody wants their population to thrive. They may have very different systems through which that's going to happen, but you could still be saying, how do we foster that? So in the case of China, you say, well, how do we build constructive trade relationships with between American and Chinese companies and consumers? How do we keep government out of the way? How do we make that a fair and level playing field? There's lots of important things to talk about. And there actually was just shortly before we were recording this podcast, there was a high-level conference between our president and uh and the Chinese leader, President uh Zhi. And I hope that went well. You know, all we get to see in the news media is like the pageantry that goes along with it. They they went and visited the National Archives and looked at the Bill of Rights. I thought, oh, that's probably a good good thing to show them. But uh I think it just starts with relationships, right?

SPEAKER_00 42:23

Yeah. And you know, it is interesting, like our our world is so interconnected now that we really are all in the same bucket as humans and on the same planet, and we like to think that we could really work together. So I don't know. I mean, we you had your shot at being a world leader here and making phone calls to Canada and and China. I guess I'm sitting here thinking like I'm just an ordinary guy in Nights.

SPEAKER_01 42:47

My phone call would not be as valuable as your therapy session with all those same people. Figure out what's really motivating them and coaching through it.

SPEAKER_00 42:55

Yeah. Wow. I wonder just as a person, like since sitting here in Niles, Michigan, you know, uh where I live, what kind of applications, you know, would I be pulling out of this conversation in terms of just what I can do as a as a person?

SPEAKER_01 43:12

Yeah, well, I think we're all ambassadors for the country we live in, and so you have opportunity. I think Americans in particular right now still have immense opportunity to influence the whole world. You can meet people and find people from almost anywhere. Some of them are immigrants here, some of them are on student visas here, some of them you find online. You can certainly go visit most places in the world. And so as we interact with the global community, I think that whatever we want them to believe about America, they should be able to see in us. So if you think I don't want them to think America is cocky and self-interested and, you know, everybody's violent or what well then you've got to represent that as one individual, and maybe you can be the face of America to that individual. There's 330 million of us, so I think we could together make a better impression on the world. It's not really just about what Washington, D.C. does or what our news media says, it is about our relationship. When I was younger, first married, we didn't have kids yet. My wife and I had the opportunity to host international students in our home, and so we signed up and said it could they could be from any country, and we signed up for this program, and we had two Iranian students in our home. And uh that was fascinating. I mean, Iran has been an adversary and even an enemy to the US for a long time. And just talking to them, we we got out the game of life, the American game life, and uh, we were looking at, I was trying to explain how to win. If you think about that game, you win by like your car drives all the way to the retirement zone, and then it's like, do you have a lot of money or not? Is how you win. And and I said, Yeah, honestly, this is actually pretty much how it works in America. The uh and it was so fun having a human connection with people from Iran. That is an opportunity I think we all have, is just to look for ways that we get to be the ambassador.

SPEAKER_00 45:00

It is incredible how many people from around the world are already in the US, even if it's temporarily at our universities. I mean, this is a fairly small community, but through the universities just in our backyard, and I think every co every county in America would have something like this. There are people from literally over the world, and a lot of times they're in a very vulnerable season of their lives. They're in a new place. Um, they're trying to acclimate and learn and assess, and you know, they are oftentimes alone on all of our major holidays and everything else when everyone goes home. It is quite the opportunity to strike up some friendships and to learn yourself, but also to uh pass on and share things that those folks might take with them the rest of their lives.

SPEAKER_01 45:43

Yeah. So if we went all the way back to that pilgrim leader John Winthrop, and he's talking about the eyes of the world are upon us, and here we are, the city on a hill, we go back to what Jesus said about being a light to the world. Say, I can't necessarily control personally what our president or Congress or diplomats are doing, but I can be a light to the people around me, and I can represent these values. And I just want to read that out. Matthew 5 16, what Jesus did say to his disciples, he said, Let your good deeds shine out for all to see, so that everyone will praise your heavenly father. That's a great vision for you and for me, whether we're interfacing with immigrants or people in another country or just our own American neighbors. Uh, we should have in mind to be a light to them.

SPEAKER_00 46:33

Pretty awesome.

SPEAKER_01 46:35

Abundant is sponsored by Baryon.life and originates from Barrion Center Bible Church in Southwest Michigan. Special production thanks to Ben Sanders, Trevor Jones, and the whole BCBC team. Scripture quotations are from the New Living Translation. Help share abundance. Subscribe wherever you listen, and pass this episode on to someone who is born outside the U.S. and ask them what they see about America these days. Tell us what they said at Shareatabundant.show. And until next time, live abundantly.