SPEAKER_00 0:02

When we talk about America being great or great again, what do you think we're referring to?

SPEAKER_01 0:10

So sometimes, you know, we can start believing our own premise. The shadow side of all that is when you come short of your own values.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

I think it is exceptional that our country is based on ideas, aspirational values. Because if it was just bloodlines and ethnicity, then whatever we do is the American way. And no, that's not true. Well, America just turned 250 years old, and at least for the last 10 of those years, we've been fighting about one particular word, the word great. Was America ever actually great? Is it great? Should we be trying to be great? And what do we make of people who claim that they're great or we're great?

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Yeah, what's super strange about the word great is I'm not even sure we know what it means. You know, we're not even using the same definitions.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

So, yes, that's where we're going to start here on this new podcast. So, welcome everyone to Abundant conversations about the life everyone's actually looking for and what's getting in the way. I'm Dan Jarvis. I'm here with my good friend Del Fasenfeld, and this is our very first episode, the start of a season that we're calling American Future. Now, before this country can have a future that's worth wanting, we need to get a working definition of the word great if we're really pursuing that. What does it mean? What makes a country great? And I think we should visit history's graveyard of great powers and maybe spend a little bit of time thinking through biblically what greatness even is. So you ready to get into it, Dell?

SPEAKER_01 1:53

Let's roll, Dan.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Okay. Um I noticed in the fireworks show in Washington, DC on the 4th of July, they fired 850,000 munitions, the largest show ever recorded, supposedly, in world history. Till someone else wants to beat it. Um but it was quite epic and overwhelming. Even just to watch it on video was epic and overwhelming. And it made me think about like this is really great. If I was shooting for great fireworks, I don't think I could imagine something better than what that was.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

America is great because America has the best fireworks show.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

That would be the argument, and I think you'd find people making that argument about all sorts of things. Like we've got the best fill-in-the-blank, the best technology, the best financial system, the best housing, the best whatever. So is that like when we talk about America being great or great again, what do you think we're referring to?

SPEAKER_01 2:56

I think we're just trying to figure out comparatively what gives a country like ours enduring quality.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

Like what is the essence? What do you think of people who use it as an argument almost like a political argument? Like America is the greatest country that's ever existed, and they're pushing it. Like if you don't agree with that premise, then somehow your logic is faulty or you're you know you're not seeing the whole picture.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Yeah, I think I think sometimes it can feel a little adolescent, can't it? My dad's bigger than your dad, or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

Like arguing in the locker room or something. What about all the countries in the past that would have said they're great? I mean, if you were a Roman citizen 2,000 years ago, would you have had a little patriotic pride swelling in your chest, do you think?

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Yeah, I mean, I think some of these cultures lasted in their greatness for hundreds and hundreds of years. Longer than 250, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:57

And um Britain, France, it's almost like all these different parts of the world, China, that had their time in history when you'd point and go, that was their peak. They were really, really great by some measurement, either wealth or military power or cultural influence. I don't think I can argue that America right now is at a pinnacle. I mean, maybe you could argue that like we peaked already and we're on the downhill or something, but certainly if you look around the world, the military power, cultural power, financial power, it's still mostly American, right?

SPEAKER_01 4:32

It is. I mean, the the the footprint certainly of the influence of America on the world is undeniable. And I think it's also interesting to think about the fact that that impact has happened in a relatively short period of time. You know, 250 years is starting to get some gravitas to it, but it's still relatively, in terms of history, a very young nation. Yeah. And, you know, if you were like grading um America on a developmental curve, you might say, is America even an adult yet? Are they still in their adolescence?

SPEAKER_00 5:02

Have you heard the term Amerimaxing? I just came across this recently. Maximum American, I don't know, muscle, like the picture of the bald eagle with the machine gun or something, and you wear that on your t-shirt and you're all ripped and you're Amerimaxing, you know.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

It's not just like the flag itself. You've got to like it.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

You gotta be driving a Jeep in the wilderness with a massive oversized flag out the back, like blazing guns, and the eagle is screeching and flying behind.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

It's like the Marble man on steroids.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

Yeah. So that I resist, I like it. There's a certain part of me that likes it. It's fun. But then if I open up the Bible, I'm not sure if that's exactly how we're supposed to be.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Yeah. Is that again what greatness is?

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Yeah, right. You know. So okay, just to sum this up, our show is about abundant life. And so my premise would be some of the things that make life great would also be the things that would make it a nation great, you know, that'd be the same set of qualities that you would have to develop, but you'd have to define things correctly first, right? So that's part of what we want to do. And I go back in America's founding era, and there to me, there are lots of examples that you could point to and say, that was a moment of great virtue for America, or that was a that was one of the turning points of why things have become good the way they are. The aspects of it have become good. My favorite story from the founding era is of George Washington, when people in that scenario, as they were facing pressure militarily, as they were facing pressure culturally, there were movements to make him king. Notable movements, notable people who were in their world, the world they came out of, that was normal. And so they were experimenting with what would it look like to govern as colonies and to have representative government. But it certainly felt easier to just pick a guy you trust and let that guy make the decisions. And so everybody trusted George Washington. He probably could have done it. If he would have stood up and said, I will take on this new American kingdom, it's really likely that the, you know, the weary colonists that had been, you know, so disenchanted with the monarchy in England that they might have said, well, you know, here's a guy that's one of us, somebody we can trust. And he resisted it. I think that's kind of amazing.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

It's astounding. I mean, in the sense that there had been no really patterns for that. There would have been no historical pattern, right? Um, for that. And I'm glad you kind of went back to the founding in this conversation about greatness, because I do think that what the American experiment of government started was something really unprecedented, something really unheard of in human history, which is that power was going to be shared and that there was gonna be there was gonna be a democratic kind of process that actually represented people in the say so. Wow. I mean, what a what a precedent. Yeah. And then to have some of the founding figures like Washington himself kind of model that that they weren't gonna hang on to power, but they were gonna they were gonna live out the the values of democracy was stupendous. I mean, just like unheard of. Shocking.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

If it had gone any other way, if some of those founding fathers had been a little bit more self-promoting, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion right now this way. Because the American experiment never would have happened. It would have just been another power struggle among powerful rich people, and the average person wouldn't have really had a voice.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

Yeah, and I think all that was pressure tested right there at the beginning. You know, the I heard a historian say once that the most fundamental moment in America was the first transition of power after the American Revolution, where Washington had the universal respect of the entire country, had the most wealth, had the most prestige, had been the first president, and basically voluntarily decided to transition power to someone else. Yeah. There would be no American government or American nation as we know it without his decision to actually give over power when he had the opportunity to hang on to it.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

Yeah. There's that new movie, Young Washington, that came out recently. Have you seen that yet?

SPEAKER_01 9:42

I haven't.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

I I'm really looking forward to that one. I've had some friends tell me that like it's well worth seeing, and that some of the things that we would even count as American norms were almost like formed in Washington himself, to where you could say like he's the father of our country, like philosophically, sure, but almost like a character development of this nation that rose out of the wilderness and valued each individual instead of just the people with the royal bloodline. And uh so yeah, there's a lot to celebrate. So to me, I could look at all that and say, that's great, and I'm proud of it. There are certainly parts of American history that I wouldn't say that about. Here's what's different to me. And we've had a lot of discussions over the years about this, Dell. Like because I tend to be not Amerimaxing, but I I do tend to be generally pretty pro-America. Like I'm proud of the flag, I'm excited about it. And you, you know, you'll sometimes challenge me back with you know questions about the real world. Yeah, a bit of a cynica kind of yeah, yeah. That's good, that's healthy, right? We should be able to defend our premises. I look back and I see mostly good and mostly virtue, even though I would readily admit a lot of failure and a lot of sin in American history, because it is a human group. I don't actually think Americans are any in any sense better than any other people group. I think it's just the ideals that they've agreed to are the superior governing ideals if they are respected and honored and if we live them. Like Martin Luther King when you know in the civil rights era, he he wasn't calling people to reject America. He was calling people to go back and actually live the creed that everybody had agreed to. Like this Declaration of Independence, this Constitution, is about equality and opportunity and treating people based on the content of their character and not their skin. And but the country wasn't living its own values. The challenge wasn't like anti-American, it was actually we all need to really be the Americans we said we were going to be.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

Yeah, and I think I think it would be a really interesting conversation to try to pull apart what those essential values were and try to separate it because I think what I think what ends up happening, and I we joked about my being a bit of a cynic, but what ends up happening is with Amerimaxing and these kinds of things, another feature of America is that we're great at marketing. You know, we we we know how to sell things and we know how to sell products and we know how to promote and we know how to like like you said, shoot off fireworks, but we want to like not lose the essence in the middle of all the cheerleading. And so sometimes you know, we can start believing our own press and you know, maybe getting caught up in pieces of the American dream or the story that you know, maybe we would say those that really isn't the essence. So I would be curious to you know to talk a little bit about what's the difference. Like if we were to really start pulling that stuff apart, where does the promotion stop and the and the real the essence of what makes America great begin?

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Well, it's hard to not believe the marketing when a B-2 and some F-35s fly over a stadium and you hear the roar, you think, yeah, I'm kind of glad I'm a part of this thing. Yeah, yeah. Those are the good guys.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

The glitz and the grammar glamour really is extraordinary in this country.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Yeah. Okay, well, let's here's a way I think we can unpack it. Long before George Washington, Jesus addressed greatness directly, and he said that if you want to be great, you have to serve. It's the meek who inherit the earth. It's the he he kind of flipped human expectations over. So I've always thought of humility and greatness as being linked together, which is why there's this little bit of tension or problem when I notice our country celebrating its own great qualities. Could you could you believe you have some great qualities and be positive about those, but not be arrogant? There has to be a better balance because claiming and and almost like enforcing this idea that you have to say you're the greatest thing ever, that doesn't feel at all like what Jesus taught us to do.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

It it doesn't really pass the sniff test either, because it's like, you know, if if you really are great, do you really have to tell us about it? I mean, i in some ways there there is something about the nature of greatness that you would think would be self-evident. Yeah. It'd be kind of in the fruit.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

So Proverbs is always good for wisdom. It really clearly says, Proverbs 1434, godliness makes a nation great. But sin is a disgrace to any people. So if you wanted a biblical definition of like what would a great nation be, that it is really clearly in the Bible, godliness. Like if you can be like the character of God in how you operate as a people group, I think you could say you're great. But I don't know if you would say it, because I don't know that humility would be trumpeting that, but other people might say it, right? It would be obvious to the people around you, just like it is in a on a more personal level. If you think like who's like a really great mom or a great man or a great kid, like why would you say that? It's it's not because I don't know, it it it it is a character issue, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:14

It is. It's it's sort of like uh even like a great hamburger, which is you know like a lot a lot different. But I mean generally speaking, you know, you can tell where the great hamburgers are by the line out the door. Yeah. I mean, because people can't get enough of whatever it is that is uh that is really great. Yeah. You know, and I think I think there is something about that in people too, like they're their essential character, we end up lining up to praise and to preserve and to want to emulate and to build on the things that we know really work and that are really worth you know holding on to.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

So how do you think about what do you think about this premise that if you if you have to argue that you're great, that you're not.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

I think there's something true about that, Dan. I mean, I just like it just rings true, doesn't it? Sometimes when you see people tooting their own horns, you're just uh you know, you probably have a right to be a little suspicious.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

My uh kids, one time we were in the grocery store and we were going through, they I think one of my sons was like five years old. He just learned how to read and he was kind of believing marketing. Uh and I remember he looked up at some corn muffin mix and it said on the muffin mix, America's favorite. And he looked at me and he said, Dad, we should get that. And I said, Why? And he said, It's America's favorite. He totally believed the marketing, like we're the greatest thing. I think that in a way, that's kind of like when we say America is the greatest country, the greatest thing ever to happen. Instead of that, what if we tried to live it in terms of virtue? I want to be great the way the Bible describes greatness, and it you don't even have to have the Bible in front of you to figure this out. Greatness is a is a character issue, humility issue. It's the ingredients. And so you would be pursuing those virtues and then let people make their own decision about. Like I would say it was really encouraging. You know, the World Cup has been here the last month or so, and it's fun to watch videos of people from other countries coming and going, like, all the press in my country said America was awful, and here it's pretty amazing. I really like it. Um, the the one guy that went to Bucky's and he just couldn't believe the gas station was that big. Like, okay, those are fun to it's fun when another person says you're great. It's a lot different when you're out there tooting your own horn trying to prove you're great.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

That's right. It's interesting that you bring up this idea of godliness is what makes a nation great, and that the scripture talks about that. I think one of the statesmen in early American history that came and visited our country from France ended up making a statement that's kind of parallels that he's I think he said America is great because America is good. But if America ever ceases to be good, they're gonna be they're gonna cease to be great. This was the Tocqueville. Yes, right. And I think that was early way back in the you know 1700s. You know, and so he was making this commentary that part of what he saw actually in the average American, the character of the American people, was that there was something beyond marketing. There was something, there was something that they were sharing and uh with each other and also adding value to the to their lives and also eventually producing and exporting that all over the world that was coming out of their their character. And I'm just curious, like what some of those things that you think kind of defined the best of America and or the greatness of America in the character sense.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

So here's why, here's actually why I think people try to do the marketing and the chest thumping. Some of it might not be just pure arrogance, it might be that they're looking at other Americans, maybe even notably younger Americans, and thinking like if someone doesn't tell the story of how good this thing is, they're gonna lose it, which is probably a a real challenge we've got, right? I mean, if you forget history, you yeah, you're not gonna learn the negative lessons of the past, but you're also not gonna hold on to what's good if you don't understand it. So I I can actually understand why somebody would be frustrated and go, no, no, you've got to see how great all this is. So I think there's there is a long list of great things. I'll give you a few examples that in my mind would be illustrations of the equation of like humility and serving others, meaning we did something great as a country. Um, World War II. In 1945, we could have taken over the world. We had our military, uh, even though we were assisted by allies, we were the one left standing. We had the industrial base, we had nuclear weapons before anyone else did. In that moment, if we had been like any other empire in world history, we would have locked down our gains and we would have essentially owned most of the world and could have subjugated the rest of it quite easily because everybody else was devastated. We didn't. What did we do? We started giving money to help rebuild countries and letting local populations develop their own plan. Some of them didn't go the direction we wish they would have gone. So I think that's notable. I mean, sure, some of it was self-interested. We had to defeat fascism and evil across the world as well. But we didn't do what the British would have done, the Romans would have done, the old school French would have done, the Soviets would have done. It was different. I think, well, why was it different? It's that same George Washington impulse of going, I don't have to be in charge of everything. I actually think people should be able to self-govern.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

Yeah, it's kind of Yeah, I think the ideal that freedom was a virtue or a or a God-given right that should be take that right away. That should be extended to all people. I mean, that was one of the founding ideals. And America, historically, when it's been at its best, has seen that as a calling, not as a not just simply as a way of getting ahead in the world, right? And you're right, like even the other players in World War II, like Russia, were brokering backroom deals to carve up territory, yeah, to consolidate as much as they could.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

They took their gains and it caused all sorts of suffering in Eastern Europe, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Where America's ideal sort of called it beyond that sort of opportunism to like say, hey, how can we use this moment to actually give other people opportunity, give them the freedom that you know our country's founded on? And that would be an example of something that is the best of America.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

Yeah. Okay, I've got another one that I feel like falls off the radar, and I think some of it's off the radar for political reasons that it just hasn't been celebrated as much as it's worth. It's called PEPFAR The President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief. It was George W. Bush initiated a plan to essentially rescue and intervene across all of Africa to try to deal with the AIDS epidemic. So political hot button in that era, sure. There was other things going on. 9-11 had happened. The Afghanistan-Iraq wars were firing up. There's opposition to that. And so for lots of reasons, this didn't get a lot of press. But as of right now, in 2026, people estimate that that initiative saved more than 25 million lives. And I was reading in some of the details, they say 7 million plus babies were able to be born to mothers who had HIV safely because of this initiative. So many different orphans of AIDS-related deaths, like orphans caused where the parents died, were served. So incredible, an incredible medical intervention that saved so many people. And I think that was a uniquely American initiative. I mean, of course, other countries would be maybe other countries that are part of it. I don't know all the details, but sometimes you need like a big and powerful player to take the lead role in something. And that's one example. America has done that multiple times in, you know, the disasters around the world, challenges, civil wars, um, human suffering. You could say what you want about the American government or the foreign aid being inefficient or something, but there have been some pretty amazing gifts. So I don't say that like pridefully. I just would say we should recognize America does have this humble, generous spirit in its government to a degree, but even more so in its people. Because you could look at government generosity and maybe even argue whether the government should even really be doing it. But then if you zoom down and look at individuals and philanthropy across the country, that is off the charts. And there are amazing statistics about the generous culture that's here.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

Yeah, the the idea that people would give benevolently, would give to humanitarian efforts at the level that they do is statistically higher in our population than anywhere in the world. And I remember this is not to tout any one administration, but I remember during the Bush era, he was constantly going around giving speeches about America as a city on the hill. Right. And thousand a thousand points of light, if you remember some of that.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

And again, oh well, okay, George, that was George Sr., right? George Jr., I remember when we were bombing Afghanistan. This is another interesting example. We're at war with Afghanistan trying to eradicate the Taliban and pay them back for 9-11. And we were also initiating humanitarian airlifts, and he was he was asking Americans to donate money. And he said, there's this funny little meme that goes around where he says, People ask me, can we send blankets or pillows? And he's like, No, just send your cash. But but like, what country is literally invading and bombing, but at the same time genuinely caring about the good of the civilians? That again, not perfect. There have been lots of problems. We'll get to that, but it's worth celebrating.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

Well, I think it's I think it's important to ask the question, why is that? I mean, where does that come from? It didn't come from it didn't come from nowhere. And I think some of that, again, that imagery of America as a light, America as a defender of freedom and life and the rights of individuals, actually goes all the way back to some of the founding ethos that saw God, you know, these rights uh of individuals coming from a creator, right? And saw government as being sort of a conduit or subservient to these ideals that actually were in the image of the creator. So America has been blessed and been a blessing in part just because it was it was kind of hooked into values that went beyond itself, like right from the very beginning.

SPEAKER_00 26:09

Okay, so there'd be a there'd be more we could list, of course, right? So in in my short list, which, you know, wow, I could just think of immigration itself, the the fact that the persecuted around the world see America as the place to get to says something. And even though now people would argue, and there's a good argument to have about like how much is too much and how wide open should the door be, the fact that this is the place people are crawling over each other to get into is an interesting indication of like what would be great versus not great in the world. Um people are trying to fleeing other places to get here.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Yeah, people people sense that the that the essence of America is actually creating opportunity. Yeah. And if they can get there, they're gonna have opportunity. And you know, I think I think um you're right. Uh the fact that uh you have so many more people lining up to get in than to get out is a good measurement of something, right? About the greatness of a of a country. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:09

But we should be fair and go the other direction with this, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Absolutely. And I, you know, I the whole time that we've been talking about that, I've been thinking, you know, sometimes when you hold up such high standards about godliness and goodness and being a city on a hill and having light and you know, being uh an exemplar of these ideals in the world, the shadow side of all that is when you come short of your own values, right? And certainly there are um lots of examples in our history, probably you know, in our um modern day scenario that we find ourselves in, but but certainly in the rear view mirror where we we could look back and just go, wow, we came short of some of this these things that we're upholding. So while we're upholding them, we're also you know uh failing uh to be who we say that we want to be.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

So like absolutely the number one fail, slavery. Now interestingly, like the whole world was accepting slavery in the 1700s. And if you weren't in the privileged few, you were at risk of being a slave. And I mean, sadly, that goes all the way back to the ancient times, right? So thankfully the world has changed, but America took way too long to change, especially when the founding document did say everyone's created equal, except for those people over there. You know, that that was a clear contradiction. Now, I've I've read really interesting accounts of even in the when the declaration was being formed and in the first constitutional conventions, there were debates. Like there were people who saw that contradiction and wanted to change it, but politically they couldn't get enough alignment between the North and the South to still be able to resist the British and hold that. So in that moment, I suppose those people were thinking, and I think that somebody even articulated it, it might have been Adams, or almost like, yes, that needs to be fought through, but the next generation's gonna have to deal with it, which is unfortunate because now we look back and we go, how could you miss the most obvious? But, you know, they had their fights and their time. But I look at that and I think, all right, slavery, the Reconstruction era, all the way to the civil rights era, just tremendous failure of living the founding values and the Jesus values that, you know, whether you're American or not, you should be able to see what human beings mean and who they are, and that they're made in God's image, and that owning another person is inappropriate. Um I would not want to like try to paper that over at all, but I would say I don't think people give enough credit to the fact that we did fight a very bloody civil war to defend the founding value and in part to get out of that. I mean, there were other factors involved, but the good guys did win. Um, but I don't think that negates the sin that was committed.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

No, and I think the the scourge of racism and all that it created is still being felt. You know, the consequences of the consequences of those sins, those uh those abhorrent acts um has taken its toll on the American spirit, it's taken its toll on our character, and it's something that we collectively still have to um address honestly and and work through meaningfully together.

SPEAKER_00 30:30

But I look at all that and say when I would see, because you I think the other thing that's kind of similar to that is the way we treated the Native Americans that were here before us and what and government breaking promises to them and creating reservations, and I mean, just again, terrible stories, inexcusable activity from the military to the politicians to the even just the average landowners and the white settlers and all that. But I look at all that and would say the reason I wouldn't take that storyline and say, therefore I reject America, is because those people were not living the American ideals. Their failure was they didn't live what the promise of America is. So it wasn't like America was rotten and they just did what a rotten country would do. The concept was right, they just weren't living it. So people do that with Christianity, of course, all the time. Lots of people do stuff in Jesus' name, and we go, Jesus would never have done that or advocated for that at all. So I would look at that and say, I hold it with some tension to say, yes, let's admit that's part of our collective negative and our past. Um, but that doesn't necessarily mean throw, throw out the constitutional republic. It it means we need to live the values.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

It's interesting. It's like your argument there, Dan, is that all the worst moments in American history, all the things that we could rightly look at and just say that wasn't great. In fact, that was that was flat out awful and wrong. Most of them were failures to live up to the ideals and the callings and the founding virtues. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

I mean, do you really believe in your heart that everyone's created equal and that they're endowed by their creator with unalienable rights and they have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of pursuit of happiness? Or in a Christian frame to do to others what you would have them do to you, to love your neighbors yourself. Like if you're living those values, I would say that's actually maximum America in the best way possible.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

So there's a there's an ability to s to step into the American story with that foundation and be honest about uh the failures while still in a in a way even building on the founding ethos.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

Yeah, well you've got to do that with every other organization that you're part of. I mean, think about your family. Um I can think about my family and go, yeah, there's been some I'm proud of my family. I'm glad I'm named Jarvis, but not everything that Jarvises have done is something I could defend. Not everything I've done is something I could defend. Like we are in a struggle to live virtue.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

I I like that in a way because because it seems like there's a self-correcting principle that's kind of built into the American ideal, which is that when you when you have this set of foundational values, it sort of holds yourself accountable to something beyond yourself. And you have the ability to say I was wrong. Or I need to correct something.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

Here's another word that's like part of this that's probably overused and misinterpreted, but the word exceptional. I think it is exceptional that our country is based on ideas, like that, aspirational values, and not just based on bloodlines and ethnicity. Because if it was just bloodlines and ethnicity, then whatever we do is the American way. They know that's not true. Whatever I do is not the American way. The American way is to follow the founding principles. And I think as Christian believers, we would also say it's to honor the wisdom of the Bible, which was in large part what helped inform those original principles. If the further I am away from that, the further I am away from what the American way is. So we do have this kind of guiding light, but it's not ourselves, it's not our own greatness. It's actually this pursuit of something better that does actually tie beyond this world into the next, into something that, like, what does humanity even mean? What who did God create us to be?

SPEAKER_01 34:46

Wow. It's I'm kind of I'm kind of lost in this conversation, and I'm just being finding myself getting inspired about what that kind, what that line of thinking could even provide for us today. Like it would be a really interesting conversation to think about what other places right now in our lives, our culture, our modern times that we could take that same, you know, principle and start applying it to, and there would be this self-correcting um principle kind of built in that would help us get back on course.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

Absolutely. And you know, fireworks are on discount right now, Dell. So you could join the party. There's still time. America 250, man. Okay, we want to wrap up with uh thinking about a scripture in Deuteronomy when God actually warned his people against the danger of success. And I read this, and I know I know, like, you know, people in interpretive the hermeneutic here would definitely be you can't read like passages about Israel into America. That that's been a common error people make. But you tell me, like, I'm gonna read this to you. This really sounds like us. It sounds like our scenario right now. So Deuteronomy 8, verse 6 says, So obey the commands of the Lord your God by walking in his ways and fearing him, for the Lord your God is bringing you into a good land of flowing streams and pools of water, fountains and springs that gush out in the valleys and hills. It is a land of wheat and barley, grapevines, fig trees, pomegranates. I don't know if we have pomegranates, olive oil, honey. It's a land where food is plentiful and nothing is lacking, a land where iron is as common as stone, copper abundant as the hills. When you have eaten your fill, be sure to praise the Lord your God for the good land he's given you. But that is the time to be careful. And here it comes. Beware that in your plenty you do not forget the Lord your God, and disobey his commands, regulations, and decrees that I am giving you today. For when you have become full and prosperous, and you have built fine homes to live in, and when your flocks and herds have become very large, and your silver and gold have multiplied along with everything else, be careful. Do not become proud at that time and forget the Lord your God. To me, that's America. That's like a warning for America. It's a warning for any culture that experiences God's blessing because they live the virtues. Like he's saying it so clearly here. If you obey these these laws, these principles, this vision of what right righteousness and greatness is, you you'll have success. It's going to be amazing. But in that moment, don't forget where this all came from.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

It's kind of interesting because I'm I'm sitting here, you know, uh I'm a I'm a therapist in my day job. Um, you know, in my office, the people who come in and they're the ones who think they're fine. I mean, they're not gonna make much progress, right? The w the ones who come in and think that they're all bad, that they're completely worthless. Well, that's a that's a hard place to get up off the ground from to make progress. It's usually the ones who say, you know, um I have my flaws, I know that I but I know who I am and I know what I'm called to, and there's work to do. You know, those are the ones who seem to be able to close the gap between wherever they are and where they want to be. And you know, as you were reading that text, I mean it is a powerful call, isn't it, to remember uh your values, remember what you really are were called to, and to be honest about where you're not. But to realize that this moment actually provides an opportunity to uh to become.

SPEAKER_00 38:33

So in in this abundant podcast, one of the one of the things we want to do as a norm is always end our episodes with something really practical, like therefore what? This is all really interesting, but what should I do as one person? I came across this idea, this is not original to me, but it's really interesting to think about. That you don't grade a nation like with a report card or you know, it's not binary like is it great or not? It's it's more like a nation is a garden that has to keep being tended. And I think about that. The times that my garden is well tended is when I'm paying attention to it. But if I don't pay attention, if I'm not thinking clearly, if I don't have a plan, if I'm not out there pulling the weeds, fertilizing, doing the right thing, um, it's not great, right? So has America had great moments? Like if you were to take a picture of the garden at different times, could you say, wow, that's a great garden? Yeah, I would I think I think we should admit yes, that's true. Have there been moments when it's been full of weeds and definitely needed a rearrangement? Absolutely. So where are we right now? And more personally, where are you and I right now? I think about there's 330 million people that live here that would say that they're Americans. I'm one of those. So I don't have a whole lot of power compared to the other 330 million people. But I have a little bit of choice, a little bit of opportunity, and to me it's like my calling is not necessarily to just be a critic of the government or to push against the powers that be. It's actually first and foremost to live all this myself. These virtues have to be in me. And that would not just lead to a better America, that would lead to the abundant life because that is the virtuous, joyful life that we're all seeking.

SPEAKER_01 40:32

Yeah, I guess we all have a decision to make at a really fundamental level when we when we when we say the phrase, is America great? And that's uh I guess it's the question, am I actually gonna be the the version of myself that is not primarily self-serving and opportunistic and self-promotional, but am I gonna live for something beyond myself? And am I gonna have the humility to kind of be course corrected in all the ways that I need to be in order to really embrace the spirit of greatness?

SPEAKER_00 41:06

Absolutely. Well, thanks, Dell, for hanging out with me today. And thanks all of you, our listeners. We did make a real claim today that what makes a nation great is the same recipe that makes life abundant. So if you agree, if you disagree, if you'd like to add a little bit to this conversation, we would love to hear from you. Abundant is sponsored by Barion.life and originates from Barion Center Bible Church in Southwest Michigan. Special production thanks to Ben Sanders, Trevor Jones, and the whole BCBC team. Scripture quotations are from the New Living Translation. Help share abundance. Subscribe wherever you listen, pass this episode to one more person who needs it, and share what you're carrying at share at abundant.show. Until next time, live abundantly.